“A Board needs right-brain and left-brain people. People who are logical and people who are creative.” -Samuel Chiang
[00:00:00] Samuel Chiang I would say to an upstart, boards are extremely demanding. And sometimes, those boards are like your father and mother, and they want to actually be helicoptering you all along. Be certain that you have people who are for you and not people who are wanting to have their agenda done through you.
It’s probably the number one thing, and you say, what does that mean to have people who are for you, people who are going to be praying with you through the thin and thick things, and they not only believe in the vision, but also, they will call you to accountability because they know it’s good and proper for you.
+++++++++++=
[00:00:47] Tommy Thomas: Today, we’re continuing the conversation we began last week with Samuel Chiang. In this episode, Samuel delves into the intersections of faith and technology. He discusses his journey from Taiwan to becoming a global leader in Bible translation and digital innovation. He shares insights on how artificial intelligence and emerging technologies are transforming the nonprofit sector. He also reflects on the challenges and opportunities of leading in a complex and rapidly changing world. Samuel’s thoughtful perspectives offer valuable lessons for leaders in any sector, particularly those navigating the intersection of faith in technology. This episode is a must listen for anyone interested in leadership, innovation and the impact of technology on global missions. Join me as we pick up where we left off last week.
[00:01:46] Tommy Thomas: If you were writing a book on the burdens of leadership that only the President or the CEO could uniquely bear, what would be some of your topics or chapters you would discuss?
[00:01:59] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, so this is a very interesting question. For me, at the stage of life I’m in now and looking back, I think I would be consistent to say that the formation of the soul in a leader and in discipling and mentoring is absolutely critical.
[00:02:27] Samuel Chiang: And quite frankly, I’m thankful that I have been mentored by books in many different ways. Whether it’s your classic Bobby Clinton, The Making of a Leader, or your Bill Hall, he wrote a trilogy of books, Disciple Making Pastors and things like that. Those sorts of things spoke into my life very deeply and it’s been a part of my practice.
My practice has been, how does a leader disciple? In a workplace and really, quite frankly, in a non for profit to a for profit, both our workplaces, the discipling in both mentoring must go on in both. But when you move into a C suite level, there is an extra dimension in terms of the formation of the soul formation, in the C suites.
What is it God is up to, to have individuals in the C suites and how are they dealing with things on the inside? Those are very important topics.
[00:03:32] Tommy Thomas: Any books you’re reading on those topics that people might learn from.
[00:03:38] Samuel Chiang: Oh, there have been many different books. Probably, Jim Wilder, is a wonderful, great read.
Others would be thin little books, but profound, equally. And I read them over and over, Ari Nguyen’s books. I would say they’re very important as well for the soul. I would say also those books are not ones in which people want to learn how to, those ones are much more feeding into the being side. How am I, and what are my biggest shadows? That is a detriment for leading others.
[00:04:01] Tommy Thomas: Maybe a lighter question. If you were a judge on a nonprofit version of Shark Tank, and people were coming to you for early-stage investments, what questions have you got to have answers to before you open your checkbook?
[00:04:43] Samuel Chiang: Oh, yeah. Okay.
- What is the problem that you’re trying to solve?
- What is your purpose?
- And who is on your board?
[00:04:51] Tommy Thomas: Unpack the board piece for a minute. Boards are so critical. And what are you telling an upstart about their board?
[00:05:04] Samuel Chiang: Yeah. I would say to an upstart, boards are extremely demanding. And sometimes, those boards are like your father and mother, and they want to be helicoptering you all along. Be certain that you have people who are for you and not people who are wanting to have their agenda done through you.
It’s probably the number one thing, and you say, what does that mean to have people who are for you, people who are going to be praying with you through the thin and thick things, and they not only believe in the vision, but also they will call you to accountability because they know it’s good and proper for you.
[00:05:52] Samuel Chiang: And people who are for you, probably, I always look for advisors or board members who are, if you will, not only right handed, but some of them would be left handed. We need both sides of people who are highly logical, but also highly creative. And so therefore, many people who are startups, have to pivot.
They have to be agile. They must think laterally and people who are very logical might not be able to pivot as quickly, but people who are highly creative could maybe see the things that the entrepreneur startup sees. So, you need a combination of both. And I will highly always recommend both men and women. The perspectives are real and they’re meaningful.
[00:06:46] Tommy Thomas: Do you think it’s important to have someone on the board who’s a logical, or a natural critic, you say you want people for you and I get that. And then I see the piece about, holding you accountable. If I remember right, I think Rich Stearns told me at World Vision at each Board Meeting, they appoint, and they got a name for this person, but this person is supposed to say, yeah, but he or she is supposed to listen and then come back with a counter argument.
[00:07:17] Samuel Chiang: Yeah. Okay. The original question was about a startup. And then it applies whether you’re going to have a counter argument. Would you have somebody who is going to be an appointed critic or appointed somebody who’s going to say the bots. Absolutely. That would be healthy for the board.
And I used the word health in a very, meaningful way. You don’t need just help, but you need health in the board and the health of the board, should have somebody who’s going to be an open critic, constructive, and positive. For the whole board to receive those thoughts. It’s absolutely important.
+++++++++++=
[00:08:09] Tommy Thomas: Let’s stick with our startup nonprofit. You’re developing a dashboard to help the founder get at their health. What dials are you putting on the dashboard?
[00:08:20] Samuel Chiang: Wow. I will say, on the dials, I would want to know, what are we measuring? And, depending on the type of nonprofits, I would say, yes, you want to measure your financial health, but you want to be able to measure your human health.
You want to be able to measure your social capital health, depending on the type of not for profit. You may also want to measure your natural health. So, there’s several different items to measure from your human capital, financial capital, social capital, natural capital, and then, on a dashboard, I also will want to know what is our pathway to solving the problem.
[00:09:06] Samuel Chiang: For any social entrepreneur, you have to ask the question, for the Shark Tank question that you’re asking. What was your purpose? What problems are you trying to solve? And who’s on your board? You have to have a clear pathway to solve your problem. And then, probably, what does sustainability look like in multiple horizons?
[00:09:32] Tommy Thomas: I’ve read two or three articles in the past six months, about the productivity of people that would be my age and your age and older. And it seems like a lot of us are pretty productive. After working your way through a career, do you have any thoughts on employing people in their upper years and what you might expect there.
[00:10:00] Samuel Chiang: For people who are in their upper years, I will want to say to them, you still have a lot to offer, and that offering is for people to be taken either one sip at a time, one bite at a time. You cannot give it to them all at once. And nobody wants it all at once.
It may not be relevant all at once. And I would say to be very selective on the assignments that you’re going to take. Be watching out for the talent that may be placed in front of you. And it would be wonderful if the relationship developed with those talents are such that they’re coming for you. So, they want to learn from you.
That’s a whole lot easier than if you want others to learn about you. Ao those are some initial things I would say.
[00:11:07] Tommy Thomas: Let’s go to succession planning. You’ve experienced that in different organizations. I’m sure on boards you’ve sat on, y’all have done it. What’s the pros and cons of promoting from within to the CEO chair?
[00:11:25] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, so it really depends on the season that the organization is in. Sometimes, it is better to bring somebody from the outside. I would say this in a healthy organization that’s larger, if leaders develop, the way the management system works, I would say it would be, my preference would be to promote someone from within for a larger organization than to bring them out from the outside.
Yeah, it does matter depending on the season the organization is in.
[00:12:04] Tommy Thomas: How much of a role should the outgoing CEO play in hiring his or her successor?
[00:12:11] Samuel Chiang: Again, it depends on the stage of the organization. I would say that the hiring process probably is best as a muted voice rather than an active voice, because it’s really the board’s responsibility.
And, to have a CEO, to have an active voice, some dynamics just get weird. And then, if there’s an active voice by the outgoing CEO, on the next hire, and the next hire did not go well, et cetera, too many dynamics. So better to be muted.
[00:12:52] Tommy Thomas: What about the outgoing CEO maybe sticking around in an emeritus role as emeritus CEO, or even serving on the board?
[00:13:03] Samuel Chiang: Yeah. I have met with a situation in one of the boards I currently sit on, the outgoing CEO or former leader is in the emeritus role. As long as there is a real understanding of that emeritus role in terms of a job description. Pretty boxy. And if there’s a continued passion for that person to be in the boxy emeritus role, I’m all for it.
++++++++++++++
[00:13:37] Tommy Thomas: Let’s go to a couple of quotes I wanted to get your response to.
If you never color outside the lines, the picture will never change.
[00:13:49] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, I totally agree.
Tommy Thomas: And y’all did a little bit of that, with Wycliffe and the Seed Company.
[00:13:56] Samuel Chiang: Oh, we did. And I think they still do.
[00:14:02] Tommy Thomas: No matter what job you have in life, your success will be determined 5 percent by your academic credentials, 15 percent by your professional experience, and 80 percent by your communication skills.
[00:14:16] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, I agree with that. And I think the communication skills are one of EQ, because I’m thinking in a smaller startup and the median size organization. Yes. Your communication skills are really you at the leader, but even at larger organizations, that communication skill could be outsourced by other people and, outsourced to someone who has your voice and writing things for you, but you yourself must have that ability to be relational with your colleagues and with people who are in your company work organization.
[00:15:00] Tommy Thomas: Never tell people how to do things, tell them what to do. And they will surprise you with their ingenuity. General George Patton.
[00:15:11] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, I totally agree with that. Yeah, and especially these days with all the generative AI and all that stuff.
[00:15:20] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, you try to outsmart that. No, you’re not going to, it’s not going to happen. So, I agree with General George Patton.
[00:15:28] Tommy Thomas: A lot of people have said they, I guess their persona of General Patton is that he would have never operated that way. I’ve not read enough about him to make a meaningful comment there.
[00:15:39] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, it would. I’m still learning, so I’ll have to find out.
[00:15:47] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, let’s go back to board for a minute. Here’s a quote. The fewer board members, the better. If it’s 18, I’m just not interested. Ernest Happel.
[00:15:56] Samuel Chiang: I totally agree. It’s very difficult. Yeah, Jesus had a reason for a dozen.
[00:16:07] Tommy Thomas: Let’s close this thing out with a couple of, maybe penetrating questions. If you had a do over in life to do, what would it be?
[00:16:27] Samuel Chiang: Probably I would maybe want to stay at home a little bit more, travel a little bit less. In 1992 to 2000, 2001, it was 100, 120 days a year. 2002 to 2016 was about 150, 160 days a year and it went down a little bit and right now it’s gone back up. I would say I would maybe want to travel a little bit less.
Though I will say this. I have always asked our kids, would you like me to be gone during the week and come home on the weekends? We’re taking longer trips and then staying home longer. They, without fail said, no, take short trips, always be home on the weekends. That’s what we practiced.
[00:17:22] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, as far as redo – No, I think other than that, I don’t think there’s too many things that I would want to redo.
[00:17:30] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. If you could tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would it be?
[00:17:40] Samuel Chiang: I probably would say something to the effect, don’t just think about discipleship and mentorship of others. Think about your interior life earlier and how God is actively creating that infrastructure, the interior life. And that’s probably something I would want a younger leader to hear, learn, and experience earlier.
++++++++++++++
[00:18:11] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you’d like for me to explore, my email address is [email protected]. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you’ve heard something today that’s worth passing on, please share it with others. You’re already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I’ll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
“An effective Board has a good mix of men and women. The different perspectives are real, and they are meaningful.” -Samuel Chiang
Links and Resources
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Orality Breakouts – Using Heart Language to Transform Hearts – Samuel Chiang & Avery T. Willis
Connect
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on: